1990s are usually considered as a period of deep crisis for heavy and power metal. Well, probably it is correct in terms of commercial success, but deep in the underground bands kept recording very decent albums. And then, a lot of good new bands appeared in the second half of the decade (New Eden, Steel Prophet, Seven Witches, HammerFall and Saxred Steel to name a few). They gave heavy metal a new life and got deals with labels like Metal Blade or Nuclear Blast. Among these newcomers was Destiny's End — a group of young guys with none then James Rivera himself in front of the mike stand. Two albums that the band delievered back then are now classics of the U.S. power metal. Back in 2021 these records were re-released on vinyl, so I contacted Perry Grayson (the guitarist) to talk about short but bright life of the band.
Before Destiny’s End you played in Obscure with Kragen Lum and the guys from Prototype. Tell me a bit about that period! Did you record anything with that band? Was the song “The Obscure” written around that time?
Obscure was the name I chose for my own metal project around late 1996 to mid 1997. I was going to enlist my friend Kragen Lum, the lead guitarist of Prototype, to lay down some solos on a demo. The demo was never recorded, because by September of 1997, Dan DeLucie hit me up to audition for what became Destiny’s End. My tune “The Obscure” dates back to 1995, when I was playing with future Prototype bassist Mike Bear, in a metal band called Stormhaven. Stormhaven didn’t record any demos or play any gigs. The song was first titled “Flame of Life,” after the Frank Belknap Long story of the same name.
Obscure was the name I chose for my own metal project around late 1996 to mid 1997. I was going to enlist my friend Kragen Lum, the lead guitarist of Prototype, to lay down some solos on a demo. The demo was never recorded, because by September of 1997, Dan DeLucie hit me up to audition for what became Destiny’s End. My tune “The Obscure” dates back to 1995, when I was playing with future Prototype bassist Mike Bear, in a metal band called Stormhaven. Stormhaven didn’t record any demos or play any gigs. The song was first titled “Flame of Life,” after the Frank Belknap Long story of the same name.
Destiny’s End came to life when Dan, Nardo, Brian and James decided to leave New Eden due to the conflict with Horacio Colmenares. I know you weren’t there but could you say a few words on that matter? What went wrong in New Eden?
I hate to sling mud at anyone. I can just tell you briefly what I was told about the situation by the DE guys. Horacio was sitting on recording contracts with both Metal Blade and Nuclear Blast. The other four dudes wanted to run the contracts by a music industry lawyer, but Horacio didn’t. Horacio wasn’t giving the other guys much room to contribute to writing songs and the like. It finally came to a head when New Eden supported Fates Warning in LA in September 1997. That was the night those guys made the final decision to depart New Eden and take the Metal Blade offer. Horacio found new people to work with and kept the old band name. He succeeded in his own right. I don’t know him well personally, but I can tell you he’s a capable guitarist.
The band demoed some stuff under the name of New Eden, so what songs were on that demo? Were there some leftovers which never saw the light of day?
There were a few New Eden demos done with my old friend Michael Grant (ex-Onward, Crescent Shield) on vocals, followed by a few tunes with James singing. Those demos were never properly released. “Under Destruction’s Thumb” was one of those tunes, and it became a Destiny’s End track. We also used “The Hunger” and “Cold New World” from New Eden’s “Savage Garden” demo tape in DE, but they were retitled “Sinister Deity” and “Unsolved World” respectively.
Dan came up with the name of the band but did you consider some other titles? What names were in your list for example?
At the top of my band name list was Obscure, of course. I also liked the ring of the name Noctuary, taken from a Thomas Ligotti book. Neither of them were well liked by the rest of the DE guys. At the end of the day, I think Destiny’s End was a perfect fit for our band name.
It was frustrating not to have our singer in the same state/city. I used to send letters (prior to the widespread rollout of the internet) to James basically begging him to relocate to Los Angeles with the rest of us. James rehearsed with DE very infrequently, and I think it definitely affected the band chemistry. James was busy in Houston, Texas, singing in a Sabbath and Priest cover band. After a while we had Michael Grant come down and rehearse with us just to have someone singing while James was in Houston. Mike jammed with us for several months and also loaned us his power amp for our PA system. It got to the point, for a number of reasons, that I wished Mike was our singer.
A lot of your songs are based on books of Frank Belknap Long, H. P. Lovecraft and Lord Dunsany. Was James enthusiastic about singing this type of lyrics?
I’ve always been inspired by stories/books where writing lyrics are concerned. Dan and Brian are also very literate guys. All of my contributions to DE’s “Breathe Deep the Dark” were inspired by weird tales by Long, Lovecraft and Dunsany among others. That also included Edmond Hamilton (“In the World’s Dusk”), Clark Ashton Smith’s stories and poetry and Rod Serling’s “Twilight Zone”. James didn’t read any of that stuff, but I did turn Dan on to quite a few weird fictionists over the 3 years I was in DE. By 1997 I was also heavily into hardboiled noir/crime fiction by Cornell Woolrich, Raymond Chandler, Dashiell Hammett, David Goodis and the like. That culminated in me writing “First You Dream, Then You Die” (based on Woolrich’s enormous body of work) for “Transition”. To sum it up, James was not interested in any of these things.
“Breathe Deep the Dark” wasn’t set out to be a concept record. It just so happened that most of the songs dealt with how we’ll be remembered when we die and the unknown we must all face at the end of our lives. Pretty morbid subject matter, but that’s what I was inspired to write about at the time.
Did it take long to write all the songs for “Breath Deep the Dark”?
The songs for the album came together very fast. I joined up with the guys at the end of September 1997, and we were in the studio recording “Breathe Deep…” about 3 months later. We had those three former New Eden tunes (which Nardo and Brian co-wrote) to use right off the bat. Dan and I brought in the rest of the new material. We recorded pre-production demos for most of the tunes on Dan’s four-track machine.
All members were credited for writing the music, but was it really the case? I mean some of the songs were based around your or Dan’s ideas so were you OK to share songwriting credits with others?
It was decided unanimously when we got a lawyer and signed the Metal Blade contract that we would split the songwriting credits equally between the five DE members, even if a song was primarily written by just one of us. This was to ensure everybody in DE got an equal share of the royalties. I might add that we saw very little in the way of royalties.
How did you work with Dan and share solos? Were there any rules like “I play solos in my songs and you play solos in your songs” or something like that?
Dan and I tried to be very diplomatic about solos. Usually, we both played leads on every DE track. There were a couple of exceptions. It didn’t matter who originally wrote the tune. We liked the idea of a dual axe attack, like Glenn Tipton/K.K. Downing, Dave Murray/Adrian Smith, Hank Shermann/Michael Denner, etc.
As far as I understand the band had offers from Nuclear Blast and Metal Blade and decided to go with the later. In hindsight, would you say that it was a mistake as your fan base was in Europe?
I don’t think it was a mistake to go with the Metal Blade deal. In the late 1990s metal was at an all-time low all over the globe. DE came into being during the wrong time for traditional metal. True, we had a solid fan-base in Europe, but Metal Blade had an office in Germany at the time, which was definitely a good thing for us.
Could you tell me about working with Bill Metoyer? In the thanks list of “Breathe Deep the Dark” you thanked him for patience. Why was that? Did you annoy him with something?
Bill produced, engineered and mixed many classic metal albums. Fates Warning’s “Awaken the Guardian”, the Armored Saint EP and the early Trouble discs to name just a few. I worship those recordings, so it was a pleasure to be able to work with him. I thanked Bill for his patience, because “Breathe Deep the Dark” was my first pro recording experience and I was a bit wet behind the ears. Bill helped capture my best performances, even if I had to punch in and fix a lot of guitar parts. I did, however, enjoy recording with Joe Floyd (the Warrior guitarist) on Transition more than our debut album. Joe was a genuine pleasure to work with.
I think it was partially a money problem that led to James recording his vocals for Breathe Deep in Texas as opposed to LA. Dan, Brian and I wanted to be there to coach James through his vocals, but it didn’t work out that way. Bill flew down to Houston to capture James’ tracks. In retrospect, it probably would’ve cost about the same to fly James to LA for a couple of weeks.
“Breath Deep the Dark” was mixed by Bill Metoyer and Brian Slagel. How substantial was Brian’s input to that process? Was the band able to voice its opinion about the mix? As far as I remember you weren’t happy with the mix.
Bill completed the first mix of “Breathe Deep the Dark”. Brian Slagel and the guys at Metal Blade Germany didn’t like Bill’s initial mix, and it was decided that Slagel would come in and give his input for a second mix. Dan and I were very hands-on and took a lot of time off our day jobs to record and mix. We gave a lot of suggestions, even on the second mix by Slagel. If there’s one thing I regret about the final mix of “Breathe Deep the Dark”, it’s the level of Nardo’s bass guitar. The bass could’ve been a lot louder.
The late 90s now seemed to be tough years for a metal band like Destiny’s End. Would you say that the band came to life in a wrong time and a wrong place?
As I was saying before, DE definitely came along at the wrong time/place. Traditional metal has achieved a second wind for the past decade or so.
The album had a good response in the press all over the world but mostly in independent webzines. What do you think of the press of that time? Was it any better than nowadays?
The press we got for both DE albums was overwhelmingly positive. I think we may have gotten like one bad review. There were a lot more print magazines back then, whereas now everything’s mainly online. We got good coverage in big mags like Metal Maniacs, Metal Edge and Terrorizer to name a few.
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| Dan DeLucie, Perry Grayson and Jeff Loomis (Nevermore) |
Touring the US with Iced Earth and Nevermore was pretty awesome. We didn’t have a tour bus or anything flashy. DE drove around in a Ford van rented from the tour booking agent, sharing the driving duties. Considering how unpopular metal was at the time, most of the gigs were fairly well attended. At first, Iced Earth was a bit standoffish, because we were hanging around with the Nevermore guys a lot. Nevermore and IE were feuding over some business concerns, and NM left the tour about halfway through. Once Nevermore left IE became a lot friendlier with us.
What were your impressions of Jon Schaffer? Was he already into political stuff back then?
Schaffer was a very intense, opinionated individual, even back then. He struck us as a very heroic/patriotic type character, like John Wayne or Ronald Reagan. I guess he was equally into politics and comic books. Ha! Schaffer does rule Iced Earth with an iron fist. After the last gig of the tour Jon came up to me and said something like, “Perry, I’ve watched you guys go from rough-around the edges into a tight, solid unit.” That meant a lot coming from Schaffer!
In 1999 you toured Europe and played at Wacken Open Air, so how was that? Was the tour well organized? Did you like that experience of playing a string of shows far away from home, traveling in the bus etc.?
Playing Wacken 1999 was easily the best and biggest gig DE ever played in terms of crowd size. Thousands of people!!! It nearly didn’t happen, because our gear didn’t make it on the same flight as we did, and we arrived in Germany with just a few hours to spare before stage time. If it wasn’t for the kindness and generosity of our tour-mates, Sacred Steel, it would’ve gone completely sour. Sacred Steel loaned us guitars, and we were able to use the festival backline (drums, amps, etc.). The remainder of the European tour was very well organized, and we had a top of the line double-decker tour bus, a merch girl, guitar and drum techs and a British tour manager that we shared with SS. It was an amazing experience, one that I’ll remember for the rest of my life. The US band Wardog was also part of the Crusaders of the Metal Blade Tour. We got on really well with everybody. It was a blast playing overseas, considering most of our fanbase was European.
We played two gigs with Mercyful Fate in Texas in August 1998. It was meant to be a three gig mini-tour of Texas, but due to some friction between James and the promoter of the San Antonio show, we only played two of those dates. Another experience I shall never forget! King Diamond pulled up to one of the shows in a rental car – in full stage makeup – just as we were loading our gear into our gear trailer and asked, “Are you going to come inside?” in his inimitable voice!
You also planned to go on tour with Death and HammerFall (a bit strange collaboration!). Why didn’t that happen?
Let me clarify this one for you. James was one of the singers Chuck contacted around 1997 to see if he was interested in singing for his new band, Control Denied. Dan and I were/are both huge Death fans and thought it would be super cool to tour with them. It was not something that was definitively planned. I had my friend Joey Severance, then working in promotions at Metal Blade, give Chuck Schuldiner a “Breathe Deep the Dark” CD at the Milwaukee Metal Fest in 1998, with the hope it might get us on the road with Death. That didn’t happen, and Death subsequently toured with Hammerfall that year. I knew Chuck was plotting to record the Control Denied disc and likewise hoped we could interest him in taking DE out as support for CD, but that didn’t happen either, mainly because Chuck was sadly stricken by cancer.
Dan said in one interview that he wanted the second album to be a proper concept effort. Was it really like that? If yes what was the idea of that concept?
The loose concept for “Transition” was artificial intelligence and humans transitioning to be more computerized/mechanized. Not all of the songs share that theme.
What was the team environment when you started writing/recording “Transition”? Were there some rifts among the members or between the band and the label?
The writing and recording process wasn’t far removed from how we worked on “Breathe Deep the Dark”. We already had “Transition” and “First You Dream” written when we went on our US tour with Iced Earth and Nevermore in May/June 1999. Part of the rift between the DE members was caused by James’ drug-related arrest, which happened as we were coming off the road from the US tour. We demoed most of the other “Transition” songs in our rehearsal room. James flew out to LA for a few days in late 1999 to lay down vocals on our pre-production demos for “Transition”. There were some serious bad vibes between James, Dan and me during the recording of Transitio“Transition”. James wanted to play a one-off gig or two in Texas. Dan and I were going to lose our jobs if we took any more time off then, which was a big part of the rift between us and James. James was dangling carrots in front of me and wanted to get a fill-in guitarist to replace Dan and do the Texas gigs. It got to the point where I felt James wasn’t being loyal to us, and I decided to quit the band. Again, I hate to have to say it, but James’ cocaine use and ego had a lot to do with my decision. The other guys desperately wanted me to reconsider, but I just couldn’t bring myself to rejoin DE.
Let me explain the “Transition” sessions… Joe Floyd was co-producer, engineer and mixed the first version of our second album. Metoyer assisted very slightly with the drum sounds, but that was about it as far as Bill was concerned. There was an initial mix by Joe which the label declined to release. Instead, Metal Blade sent “Transition” off to Germany nearly a year after its recording, to be remixed by Achim Koehler. None of the band members were present during Koehler’s remix. To say that I like Joe’s mix the most is an understatement. Now Joe’s mix will finally be released on vinyl to the metal public in 2021 on Jolly Roger Records!
As far as I understand, you quit the band before the album came out and were replaced by James’ friend Eric Halpern whose picture was put in the booklet. Didn’t you feel betrayed that you were briefly mentioned in the booklet and your picture was removed?
I quit the band a year before “Transition” was released, as I was saying before. The band and Metal Blade thankfully decided to keep all of my guitar tracks, but removed my photo from the finished product and mentioned me in like 5-point type on the back of the CD booklet. It was the price I paid for quitting the band when I did. I wish they had included both my photo and Eric’s, but they chose to go with just Eric’s shot – despite the fact that Eric didn’t play a note on “Transition”. Likewise, I wish the guys had included my name and guitar playing credit more visibly. A couple of years later, while I was in Artisan, I started to burn out on playing full-tilt fast and technical metal. Which is why I started Falcon – to play vintage-style heavy rock!
Not exactly. I probably could’ve auditioned for Nevermore, Iced Earth or Hirax, but I didn’t make any attempt. I was too busy pursuing my own path with Artisan, Isen Torr and Falcon. Isen Torr was spearheaded by my friend Rich Walker from Solstice, so that was a well-established situation. And in Falcon I collaborated with Greg Lindstrom (Cirith Ungol), which also helped boost the band’s following.
How do you see that experience with Destiny’s End these days? Are you still friends with the others? Have you ever talked about a possible reunion?
Being in DE was a very valuable experience – some good memories and some bad. At the end of the day, I’m glad it lasted even 3 years. We talked about a possible DE reunion years ago, but just couldn’t get it off the ground. It’s highly unlikely a DE reunion will ever happen, seeing as I’ve lived in Australia since the end of 2006. Before my friend Michael Grant passed away in 2012, there was some talk about me working on some music with Mike and Dan DeLucie for Crescent Shield. Sadly, Mike died and it never eventuated. The other DE guys and I have recently been in touch regarding the release of both albums on vinyl through Jolly Roger Records in Italy.
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