Sanctum: Not just players but musicians

Being a metalhead is like an addiction. Once you've tatsed this forbidden fruit, you want more and more: more new CDs, new t-shirts, new albums by favorite bands, limited re-issues and of course new bands which you haven't heard yet! Thanks to metal Gods, there are labels like Arkeyn Steel, who keep on digging in metal underground and bring long gone and forgotten bands back to life. One of these bands is Sanctum. To be honest, I discovered their EP "Believers" only when it was re-released in 2020, but it excited me as much as did the very first heavy metal albums I heard around 20 years ago. So here we are talking with Ray Babula about Sanctum! 

Am I right in thinking you are a left-handed player? Was it tough to find a guitar for you back in the day?

Yes I’m a lefty! Although I’m dominantly right handed. It’s still tough to find a left handed guitar in a music store. Left handed guitar sales only account for 2 percent of sales from what I understand. Music stores don’t stock them because of that reason. Back then no one would take the time to order one. It was very discouraging.

By the way, I remember that left-handers were considered freaks of nature and parents or teachers tried to turn them into right-handers. Did you suffer from that attitude or were people around you OK with your left-handedness?

The very first time I picked a guitar up as a child I can remember being told I had it backwards. It just felt natural to me that way. When I was in first or second grade I signed up for lessons at school and they kept trying to teach me their way. I even asked the question of, “If you're right handed that means you rely on that hand to do everything. Then why would you play notes with the hand that isn’t used to moving as much as the other?” No one would answer. I was told that’s how it was. It still makes no sense to me. I never let it bother me because I fell in love with the instrument. Each one is it’s own work of art. It has no emotion until the musician picks it up.

Ray Babula

Did you take some lessons or did you learn how to play guitar on your own?

I took it upon myself to learn. I spent countless hours playing. I would wake up for school and get ready, play until the bus came, and as soon as I got home I’d pick it up as soon as I walked in. I learned all I could from what information I could get my hands on. My lessons come from playing with other guitarists. There is a wealth of talent all over the world and I hope to learn something each time I play and hope I can help those I play with. Almost 45 years later I’m still learning!

Florence, NJ, is a quite small town and according to metal-archives.com Sanctum were the only heavy metal band from this place. I guess you were like black ships in the family with long hairs, ripped denims etc. Were your neighbors and schoolmates tough with you because of your look and musical tastes?

I never personally cared what others thoughts were. If they based an opinion on the music someone listened to or how a person chose to dress because of that music I had no time for them. Regardless of what music it is, there's talent in there somewhere.

Were you serious about the band and living off of the music? Did you think about moving to Philadelphia and succeeding there?

 Everyone in the band was dedicated to pushing as far as we could. We were only 30 minutes from Philadelphia so it was very easy to go see any band. We had begun to become well known in the area and Philadelphia was a part of that.

Who came up with the name Sanctum? Do you remember any other versions which you considered as good ideas for the name? 

The name was brought to me by a friend I had known since early childhood, Bill Clifford. We were struggling with all kinds of names and one day at rehearsal he came down the steps and didn't say anything except Sanctum. We all looked at each other and said “COOL!” and that was all it took. It was that simple.

You started playing with Mike Rogers and Al Ducsai around 1982 but it took almost 5 years to record your first demo with “Outcast” and “One Burning Candle”. Why did it take so long and wasn’t it a mistake to lock yourself up in a rehearsal room while other bands were pulling demos, singles, splits all the time?

We could have written material and gone in the studio like everyone else was doing. We were focused on not just being players but being musicians. There's a difference between the two. Anyone can learn riffs and chords and write a song, that's the player. We all have that somewhere within us. But to have the ability to know your instrument and push its boundaries and to sit in on any situation and express yourself as yourself, that's the musician. We weren't interested in the short term results of just being players.

Mike Rogers

Mike is credited as a cowriter on the songs from “Believers” EP which is a bit unusual for drummers. Did he bring riffs and melodies or did he help to arrange songs?

A majority of the lyrics were written by Mike. I looked them over and came up with the song's basic layout. The melody of the lyrics basically fell into what I came up with. We would play them without the other members and just let the flow of things happen. Occasionally I’d come off of a chord progression and get caught up on the change and he would play his part on the drums and if necessary vocalise what he was thinking and we would try it a few different ways. Eventually the musical flow would take us to the next change. Writing with a drummer made the process easier because they are the backbone of any band. You can have the best guitarist in the world but if the drummer is not on the same page it affects what you're trying to capture.

What about Ray Palm who accompanied you on guitar?

Ray remains a good friend to this day. It’s a shame things went the way they did. One issue we had was there wasn’t any contribution being made. His playing had come a long way, but he was content with just being in a band. Our goals were different so the decision to let him go had to be made.

Scott Dunn, the original singer, had a nickname Froggy. Why? And why did some people call him nuts? Was it because of his stage antics?

I’m not sure where the nickname came from. I never used it when referring to him. Some people don't mind it, but me personally I believe it's not professional and disrespectful to the person. Scott and I had mutual respect because of that. I think part of his persona led people to believe he was nuts. The fact is he liked to have fun and would do or say crazy things. He is also a man that won’t take any shit from anyone and in a split second without warning he was taking care of business. Some can't understand that and called him crazy.

What line-up recorded “One Burning Candle” in 1987? And how was that? Were you confident during recording sessions or were you nervous when the engineer pressed the “Record” button?

It was recorded with the original line up which included Ray Palm and Bob Maass. It was a laid back session. The only stress really was the fact that we had paid for it ourselves and funds were limited. I can’t speak on others behalf but I never got nervous in the studio or on stage with a crowd. It just made me want to do the best I could when the time came.

Was the song “Outcast” recording during the same session or was it done a bit later? Is it correct that Ray Palm contributed some of his ideas to this song?

“Outcast” was a song that I came up with in a very short time because we had a friend taking a mixing course. It was recorded after Ray’s departure. One of the main reasons for letting Ray go was because there wasn't any input. I’m not sure why he never brought his ideas to us but they were more than welcome.

The band didn’t send demos to labels or print copies for trade. It seemed you wanted to stay away from other bands, didn’t want to be noticed… Was it really like that? 

The honest answer to that would be. We felt there was a level of professionalism that had to be reached so we played our asses off anywhere we could. We saw no need to trade copies because when we got off stage we left a tough act to follow. Once the word got out the crowds got bigger, a lot bigger! That's how we went about it. There was no bragging or any of that. If you want to see what the hype was, we’ll show you. You either liked it or you didn't either way you were going to get a show.

After those two demos Ray was sacked from the band. Was it because he didn’t progress as fast as others did? Yes, that was the main part of it. He was given opportunities and fell short of our goals as a band.

Ray was replaced with Jim Mayberry. How did you find him and what convinced you that he would be a perfect fit? What did Jim bring to the band as a person and a songwriter? Jim was brought in by a friend. He was the only guitarist we auditioned. We just began jamming off of a basic three chord progression and I knew his style would be a perfect fit. He wrote Nasty weather, came up with the riff on Believers, the break in no mans land, and the idea of the song murder. We all hit it off as if we had known each other for years. Sharing the stage with him for those years has given me some good memories as we soloed back and forth.

Ray Babula and Jim Mayberry

Another demo was recorded with Jim: “Nasty Weather”, “Running Away” and “No Man’s Land”. Where was it recorded? Did it take long to lay down everything? Was there anything special or unusual during the recording of this demo?

They were all recorded at a studio called Mirror Sound which is now closed. We went in and did the songs as a full band in one or two takes. If I remember correctly it was all complete in three hours.

I guess it was Bob Maass who sang on that demo, right? When did he join Sanctum and why did Scott quit?

Scott didn't actually quit. He had gotten himself into a bit of trouble and had to deal with that. It would have been years before it was all over so we had no choice.

How often did you play live with Sanctum? Was it mostly around the New York and New Jersey areas or did you have a chance to tour around the States? Did you play in support of some well-known bands?

We played in what's called the tri state area which is New Jersey, New York and Pennsylvania. It's the most highly populated area on the east coast. That was the benefit of living where we did. You could be in any major city in an hour and with all of the clubs in the surrounding areas. It gave us the opportunity to open for Pantera on their first tour. Paul Di’Anno on his first tour with his new band and Savatage on one of their shows. We were playing all weekend and even a few mid-week shows. Whatever it took we did it.

Could you clarify who sang on “Believers” EP? Vinnie Cardona is credited on the CD but you mentioned that Bob was still in the band when you entered Trax East Studio…

When we entered the studio Bob was with the band. He laid down the basic tracks with us. We were still ironing out how we would go about doing and Bob had issues with joining us. That showed us he wasn't all in. He also had management issues that weren't realistic. We gave him the chance and got no result. Just because we were in the studio didn't mean he was automatically in, which I’m sure was his thinking because it was known to be that way. We let him go because although we were a band, it was also business.

How did you find Vinnie? He had hell of a voice!

Vinnie had a power in his voice that could be heard over our practice monitors. I at times questioned why we had to turn it on. Very strong and powerful. He was stationed at Fort Dix while in the military. It was the last of his enlistment and he wanted to begin singing again so he answered our ad. I'm not much on luck but I guess you could say it was luck.

The EP was recorded with Bill Lenk as sound engineer and co-producer. Was he an experienced engineer and how substantial was his input to the recording process?

We acknowledged Bill on the album because he put in his time with us. That was about it.

The cover of “Believers” looks awesome! Who created it and what was your idea? Is it a reference to famous words “And why worry about a speck in your friend's eye when you have a log in your own?

The artwork and logo was created by Jim’s friend Sonny Ray Ramos, a commercial artist. He came to us with the idea and we took a vote. I was not for it but we kept a majority ruled sort of atmosphere so I kept to that rule we had. Turns out it has grown on me throughout the years and I’ve accepted it. I honestly don't know what the idea was behind it. But it wasn't my first choice.

Some David Connor claimed that he financed “Believers” EP. Could you tell me more about that guy? Is it true that he managed some established bands in the past?

Dave was the man responsible for getting us shows. He did put money out of his pocket for the cause but the term financing is a bit over blown. He was into what we were doing one hundred percent. I believe his claim to fame was managing The Troggs while he was in college. He had the knowledge on how to get gigs so we took him on. That way we could concentrate on the music.

By the way, who is “Mamma Russo” and what was her role in your lives?

She was a friend of Jim’s who got us our first show at a club that was very hard to even get into. If anyone has that much faith in a band they deserve to be mentioned in liner notes. After we got in the club she kind of went her own way. I’m not sure what she decided to do in life.

The EP was dedicated to Joe Babula Jr. Who was that and what role did he play in your life?

Joe was my brother. He and I were as close as you can get. I mentioned him as a true believer on the album. He was a person that took people for what they are and never passed judgement. Which is really what “Believers” is about. Take me for what I am. I accept you for you. Don't try to change my thoughts and I will respect yours. He was killed in a motorcycle accident at the age of 25. On that day I lost my best friend. It was only fitting that he had the album dedicated in his memory.

“Believers” was released by the band. Was David Connor responsible for pressing CDs and manufacturing cassettes and whatever or did you also have to find pressing and printing factories, sending CDs to radio stations etc.?

Dave handled the business end of the pressings and the distribution to every radio station. Once it reached their hands is when things began to take off. We were on regular rotation with all of the metal shows across the country. The local metal show even adopted the intro of Believers as their opening music and kept it for almost 20 years until the station went through a change and the show was cancelled. That was where Dave shined the most. He had the ability to get us those things. Without his hard work and dedication we would still be rehearsing aimlessly.

The song “Murder” is a part of a concept trilogy. Could you tell me a bit about this concept and what are the other two songs in this trilogy?

“Murder” was brought to me by Jim. It was based on a police officer who would kill those who have killed others and thought his act of vigilantism was alright because the others had killed. He himself was being hunted by his peers and he didn't understand why because he felt like committed no crime.

Was “Murder” the only song you recorded in 1992 or were there other songs we don’t know of?

The second part of the song was written and recorded on a cassette player during rehearsal. It was complete minus the solos. It never made it to the studio. There was a song Vinnie wrote called end of days which was also recorded that day and never made it.

Is it true that Vinnie left the band to pursue a solo career and that was basically the end of Sanctum?

I’m not sure what the order of thoughts he had were at the time. I wasn’t made aware of the issues he had until we had our meeting. Had all of that been brought forth I could have at least tried my best to come to a conclusion. There really isn’t any reason for him not to have done that. Regardless of what anyone's issues may have been during our time together, there were no secrets or childish he said, she said nonsense. If there were any problem at all between any of us it would be addressed. Nothing was off limits. I think the solo career was Vinnie hoping to hang on to something for himself. I can only give him the credit he deserves for trying. What he didn't realize was, this didn't happen overnight. It was a result of years of planning and covering our asses. Another part of it would be finding musicians that had the dedication and could work together. There are plenty of players in the area that are extremely talented. The hard part is finding the musicians in the process that can work with each other and get an end result. That's why so many bands call it quits early on. They come on the scene with guns blazing then fizzle out because there wasn't really any kind of chemistry between them. That is why we were able to stay in it for so long. We were aware of what our role was in the band. Each one of us was accountable.

What were you doing after Sanctum?

I did what everyone else ends up doing. Getting married and going to work every day to support it.

What were your thoughts when Arkeyn Steel approached you about a possible re-release of “Believers”? Some people don’t want to be bothered about such a distant past…

After the break up I paid no attention to anything in the business. I was and still am pissed about what happened and the way it happened. I didn't have a clue that the EP had remained at the level it has for so many years without any advertising or backing. There were other members who had been approached over the years about it. I didn't keep in contact with them during that time and they chose to not do anything about it. I happened to do a random search of my name one night and it all opened up. This should have been something that was done many years ago. The decisions were all left to be made by me. There wasn't any doubt about keeping it out there. It made it this long on its own. I hope it continues to be that way. I can't describe how grateful I am to those who made that happen and continue to keep it alive.

How did you manage to find all the tapes of old demos for the reissue?

I held onto them with the hope of one day having them turned into a digital recording. That technology was very basic back then and not easily found. 

You did some posts on Facebook about those who “have given grief over” “Believers” re-release. Could you comment on that? Were they ex-members who didn’t want to re-issue the EP?
All of the time between the bands end, up until the work began on the release. None of them wanted to bother. Each one of them said to me, “It’s your baby! We have our own gigs going.” When I took my baby out for a ride they all of a sudden were looking to get on the bus. Not one of them had given a thought about how grateful they should be that music fans all over the world have kept it alive. It may have been our music but that's where it stops. Those who enjoy the music are the reason it's still around. Instead they became self-proclaimed record executives who claimed to have been able to get a better deal. If that were in fact the case, I would think they would not be playing the same places they have for the last 20 years or so and wouldn't have to go around name dropping to make themselves appear as if they're something they're not to those who buy into that sort of crap. Instead of stepping back and being honest with themselves instead of thinking they are some sort of rock star. They could appreciate what has happened and be humbled by it all. It has been very easy for them to conveniently forget about the financial obligation each one of them agreed to and have disregarded. I expected something different from them. They seemed to have forgotten if it hadn't been for all of us there would be nothing. If it wasn't for those who have kept it alive it would be nothing. I find it disappointing that they chose to take that path instead of letting it humble them.

As far as I understand, the re-issue of “Believers” was sold out very quickly. Will it be available again?

My understanding was it sold out before the release date. I may be wrong on that. Any way I look at it, there's a positive outcome. I'm sure at some point there will be another release. When that would be hasn't been mentioned.

Is it correct that you are working on a follow-up for “Believers”? If yes, at what stage are you at the moment? Do you have some finished songs already? 

I began to work with Mike again with hopes of a follow up happening quickly. Unfortunately, that ended for personal reasons. If anything were to be released, it would be under a different name with different people. That creates another issue of finding someone with the type of dedication that is needed to produce consistent material and be able to expand and grow from it. That's easier said than done.

Did you ask the guys who recorded “Believers” to participate in that new album/EP?

I reached out to Bob and asked if he would be interested in doing something together. I really didn't think he would put what happened with him in the past aside to do that. He declined the opportunity  Jim has dedicated himself to his band mates and has no interest in the possibility of working together on something different. There have been differences of opinions on the handling of things over the years. Leaving some feeling like they have been slighted in some way would be my guess. I made decisions based on their actions and inactions. That's on them to sort out as far as I'm concerned. I have no issue with putting that aside and getting to work. I have the groundwork laid out for a complete album. The choice is theirs if they want to contributor not.  All I can do is make the offer. 

I know that Jim plays with Whiskey Grin and you play with them once in a while. Are you in touch with Ray, Scott, Bob, Vinnie, Al and Mike? Are they musically active? 

Ray and I keep in touch. He has said he’s more than willing to get together again. I’m hopeful that will happen. Scott has fronted a few bands from what I’ve heard. We haven't seen each other in person since the early days. Bob chose to not keep in touch after I reached out to him. Vinnie has moved on to his life and hasn't made any attempt to contact anyone. I'll leave that alone. I'm not sure about Al. He's kept in touch with our friends over the years then disappears like he used to do while he was in the band. 

Feel free to share some words of wisdom with the readers!

I can't say thank you enough to everyone that is a fan of metal. Regardless of the type of metal you prefer, one common thread that runs throughout it is its ability to bring people from all over the world together. What began as just a style of music has grown into a worldwide metal nation. Regardless of our background we can go to any show in the world we choose and it doesn't matter where you are from or who you are. The power of music makes us one. That is totally fucking bad ass!